When this sort of thing happens it is almost impossible to explain to someone who doesn't use their hands to make things - anything. They just look blank. If they are paying for your efforts all sorts of other shite starts creeping in, almost always unrelated and certainly unhelpful. You worked your way through it and salvaged to good effect but it must have sucked balls at the time. Snapping fixings off really does. Extracting them even more so. I suspect your audience has sympathy because a lot of us have been there at some point... making fine , hand crafted firewood.
What temperature was your shop? I had a very similar experience with homebrew liquid hide glue (ground hide glue with Urea added) during assembly of a dovetailed blanket chest. The glue seems to be holding up a few years later, but I was certainly concerned about the balling up while pounding together the many-many dovetails. Obviously less stressed glue than in a chair. The advice I've gotten since was to warm up the whole shop the night before, at least to 75, but as warm as you're willing to pay for. It has seemed to help and I've not had problems since. Warming just the parts right before glue up doesn't seem to do much, nor does just warming up the shop air temp right before.
Good point about temp. Warmer is better as you mention but 65* F is nothing too extreme from my.experience. I usually glue up between 68-72* F. I don't notice the OBG tacking up until 30-40 min and even then, it's still malleable. I keep it in a warm water bath (disposed yogurt container cup, sitting in a coffee mug of hot water) up to the MOS (Moment of Schmear), though, which may play a part
That’s an interesting point, which I hadn’t really considered. I didn’t check at the time, but assuming it was about the same as today, it’s 18C, which is about 65F. Considerably cooler than you’re suggesting.
Many commiserations. Only fellow woodworkers could imagine your emotions after a session like that. Having made less than 2 dozen of these chairs, I am hardly qualified to comment, but I shall. Feel free to ignore.
The old chairmakers used elm seats for good reason. They do not split.
An experienced chairmaker once told me that wedged conical tenons are inherently likely to cause seat splits, and I am inclined to agree with him. I have since used only wedged straight cylindrical tenons with almost no problems.
Finally, gluing up a chair is difficult enough without fighting the glue. Titebond 3 gives an excellent joint with ages of adjustment time.
Thanks Paul. Elm is definitely on my list for future seat materials. On the conical Vs straight tenons I'm inclined to agree. I've made a few things with straight cylindrical tenons and got on well with it. Although taper reaming mortices is on the one had an opportunity to correct misalignment, on the other hand it is an opportunity to introduce inaccuracy, which is what I've found it do for me. Perhaps I'll give it a go on a chair.
Oddly familiar scenario. I’ve only recently built my first stool, which will, like the first saw bench of Way Back When, get the occasional pat of fondness while serving primarily as a Back of the Shop piece not shown to the public or those easily frightened. But, given my lack of CLO experience, I can’t be sure of relevance.
I didn’t have this kind of difficulty with gluing up the stool; it went together, somewhat wonkily, but with a bit of this a dollop of that, another wedge, and a second scribing of the legs for flat meetings with the floor, it’s pretty solid, and only a nutpicker would comment aloud about the various angles of the legs. So, as I indicated, probably not much help here.
Still, your story rings true with reach well beyond the shop and choices of glue, though. It reminds me of a fair number of instances where things did not go as planned, despite plenty of experience, knowledge, expensive tools, and liberal use of deprecatory and/or imploring language.
Many of these occurrences remain not well explained; others have sometimes presented a cursory post-mortem, but on equally cursory review, they just didn’t give actionable findings.
The most common theme I (think) I’ve detected amongst the lot is that of The Revenge of the Seemingly Little and Nearly Inconsequential. Feeling dour and unappreciated, these “minor details” I believe await their opportunities to throw a spanner in the works and demand their due. Which I still too seldom manage to provide, even after being thoroughly, though thankfully only figuratively, beaten about the head and shoulders with a phone book on such occasions.
Close cousins in spirit with the common Shop Gremlin, these Little Things can ruin one’s day, then recede from sight through disguise, obfuscation, and physical withdrawal, like an octopus or moray or other hide-and-wait predators. Dunno which one was the culprit here, but the song sure sounds familiar.
You have my sympathy, I had the same happen to me a couple of weeks ago. In my panic driving the legs home with a lump hammer I missed and hit the back of my hand scraping the skin off but I ploughed on dripping blood. I got it together it, not as I wished, I should have done as you did and pulled it apart. Funnily enough it was the first time I'd used hide glue on a chair never again.
When things go awry it's a tough call whether to plough on or to change tack. I kind of did both, but my early ploughing on definitely made the later recovery more work. I think for most of us our instinct is to keep going and things will come good, but that's not always the right course of action. I try to remember "implement the plan, and be ready for the plan to change". I knew I'd never be happy with the original result, so the plan had to change.
When this sort of thing happens it is almost impossible to explain to someone who doesn't use their hands to make things - anything. They just look blank. If they are paying for your efforts all sorts of other shite starts creeping in, almost always unrelated and certainly unhelpful. You worked your way through it and salvaged to good effect but it must have sucked balls at the time. Snapping fixings off really does. Extracting them even more so. I suspect your audience has sympathy because a lot of us have been there at some point... making fine , hand crafted firewood.
Hilarious post! I really enjoy how you express these events in a way that evokes laughter and a sense of recognition.
What temperature was your shop? I had a very similar experience with homebrew liquid hide glue (ground hide glue with Urea added) during assembly of a dovetailed blanket chest. The glue seems to be holding up a few years later, but I was certainly concerned about the balling up while pounding together the many-many dovetails. Obviously less stressed glue than in a chair. The advice I've gotten since was to warm up the whole shop the night before, at least to 75, but as warm as you're willing to pay for. It has seemed to help and I've not had problems since. Warming just the parts right before glue up doesn't seem to do much, nor does just warming up the shop air temp right before.
Good point about temp. Warmer is better as you mention but 65* F is nothing too extreme from my.experience. I usually glue up between 68-72* F. I don't notice the OBG tacking up until 30-40 min and even then, it's still malleable. I keep it in a warm water bath (disposed yogurt container cup, sitting in a coffee mug of hot water) up to the MOS (Moment of Schmear), though, which may play a part
That’s an interesting point, which I hadn’t really considered. I didn’t check at the time, but assuming it was about the same as today, it’s 18C, which is about 65F. Considerably cooler than you’re suggesting.
Many commiserations. Only fellow woodworkers could imagine your emotions after a session like that. Having made less than 2 dozen of these chairs, I am hardly qualified to comment, but I shall. Feel free to ignore.
The old chairmakers used elm seats for good reason. They do not split.
An experienced chairmaker once told me that wedged conical tenons are inherently likely to cause seat splits, and I am inclined to agree with him. I have since used only wedged straight cylindrical tenons with almost no problems.
Finally, gluing up a chair is difficult enough without fighting the glue. Titebond 3 gives an excellent joint with ages of adjustment time.
Thanks Paul. Elm is definitely on my list for future seat materials. On the conical Vs straight tenons I'm inclined to agree. I've made a few things with straight cylindrical tenons and got on well with it. Although taper reaming mortices is on the one had an opportunity to correct misalignment, on the other hand it is an opportunity to introduce inaccuracy, which is what I've found it do for me. Perhaps I'll give it a go on a chair.
Oddly familiar scenario. I’ve only recently built my first stool, which will, like the first saw bench of Way Back When, get the occasional pat of fondness while serving primarily as a Back of the Shop piece not shown to the public or those easily frightened. But, given my lack of CLO experience, I can’t be sure of relevance.
I didn’t have this kind of difficulty with gluing up the stool; it went together, somewhat wonkily, but with a bit of this a dollop of that, another wedge, and a second scribing of the legs for flat meetings with the floor, it’s pretty solid, and only a nutpicker would comment aloud about the various angles of the legs. So, as I indicated, probably not much help here.
Still, your story rings true with reach well beyond the shop and choices of glue, though. It reminds me of a fair number of instances where things did not go as planned, despite plenty of experience, knowledge, expensive tools, and liberal use of deprecatory and/or imploring language.
Many of these occurrences remain not well explained; others have sometimes presented a cursory post-mortem, but on equally cursory review, they just didn’t give actionable findings.
The most common theme I (think) I’ve detected amongst the lot is that of The Revenge of the Seemingly Little and Nearly Inconsequential. Feeling dour and unappreciated, these “minor details” I believe await their opportunities to throw a spanner in the works and demand their due. Which I still too seldom manage to provide, even after being thoroughly, though thankfully only figuratively, beaten about the head and shoulders with a phone book on such occasions.
Close cousins in spirit with the common Shop Gremlin, these Little Things can ruin one’s day, then recede from sight through disguise, obfuscation, and physical withdrawal, like an octopus or moray or other hide-and-wait predators. Dunno which one was the culprit here, but the song sure sounds familiar.
Now you have a ‘war’ story. Good article.
I’ve used Old Brown glue exclusively for all my joinery for a number of years now.
Dovetails, stools, benches, a couple of chairs. I especially appreciate its longer open time compared to PVA.
I don’t know why the chair didn’t go together the first time, but the reversibility of the hide glue probably saved the chair.
Keep well
You have my sympathy, I had the same happen to me a couple of weeks ago. In my panic driving the legs home with a lump hammer I missed and hit the back of my hand scraping the skin off but I ploughed on dripping blood. I got it together it, not as I wished, I should have done as you did and pulled it apart. Funnily enough it was the first time I'd used hide glue on a chair never again.
When things go awry it's a tough call whether to plough on or to change tack. I kind of did both, but my early ploughing on definitely made the later recovery more work. I think for most of us our instinct is to keep going and things will come good, but that's not always the right course of action. I try to remember "implement the plan, and be ready for the plan to change". I knew I'd never be happy with the original result, so the plan had to change.